NVIDIA
13 months with NVidia GRID and XenServer
Hi Virge Great job, sounds like you're on the road to recovery! Some things to have a look at ... Lossless Compression When you're trying this, make sure you enable "Allow Visually Lossless Compression" as well. The best way I can describe it when this is not enabled and you're using Lossless, is that the image you're trying to move feels really heavy, which makes it unusable, when you're obviously looking for a nice light feeling. To see if the lossless setting actually makes a visual difference, purely in terms of colour and clarity, on the task bar by the clock, there's a Lossless Switch that the users can enable / disable on the fly by right clicking it. Enable this during a session and see if your users can notice any differences. If they can't, then you know this isn't something worth pursuing. When I enabled it for the above use case, the line colour and clarity in AutoCAD was identical to a native workstation, whereas without, the colour was slightly off with magenta lines, and the lines were slightly hazy and not crisp and sharp like they should be. But as said, each environment is different, and you may not need this setting if your users are happy. vGPU Profiles With the K220, K240 and K260 can you please clarify something for me. How are you managing the differing vGPU profiles? Are you building the Master Image with the K240, then changing the vGPU profile after you have created the Master Image to give you the various VM specs? Power-On policy Were you able to try creating some test VMs without GPUs assigned and start them? If yes, what were the results? Are there only certain hosts that allow VMs to start? Is there anything in the Logs that indicate an attempt to start them or a failed attempt? PvDisks I'm unsure and would need to investigate. Are you using the latest version of PVS? Compression Sometimes with the Citrix Policies, it can be worth removing them (disable, not delete) and starting again, otherwise you can get drawn in to applying too many settings and wonder why they're not working (it's easily done). As I said further up, Citrix prefers a stable network, so it may be worth investigating to make sure the network is stable and everything is as it should be, otherwise it is constantly trying to adapt and you'll get varying levels of quality. With a stable network, you should be able to establish a solid baseline and then build on it. Are you able to confirm whether the Netscalers are MPX, SDX or VPX and whether you've tuned them or not? If they are VPX, can you please confirm the spec of them (CPU (Cores & Clock), RAM, Network and throughput license) and whether they're on a shared (if so what is sharing the host?) or dedicated host. Depending on how the Gateway was created (Manually or through the Wizard), you have the option to allow the configuration to apply optimizations to it, was this done or not? Have you tried bypassing the Netscalers and going to Storefront directly? Also, try connecting with RDP to one of the XDs and compare the difference to ICA. Obviously I don't know what your in-house Netscaler skills are, but the default Netscaler TCP Profile should be replaced with a workload specific one. Here's a couple of guides about tuning the TCP Profiles for XenApp / XenDesktop / ICA: https://msandbu.wordpress.com/2014/07/29/netscaler-tcp-profile-nstcp_default_xa_xd_profile/ http://msandbu.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/07/optimizing_netscaler_1.pdf If you need more information about Netscaler tuning (which is an area that is over looked more often than not) then just google "XenDesktop Netscaler Tuning" (or similar) and review the results, there is definitely additional performance to be found by tuning them correctly. As mentioned at the start, it's all part of the end-to-end system :-) The reason I'm interested in the Netscaler so much, is that everything you have runs through it, so a misconfiguration or miscalculation of some sort could potentially cause issues, regardless of what you configure behind it. There are still so many variables that I don't know about your environment that can all contribute to the performance. But it at least sounds like you're making progress to get to a level that you're happier with. Keep us posted! Regards Ben
Hi Virge

Great job, sounds like you're on the road to recovery!

Some things to have a look at ...

Lossless Compression

When you're trying this, make sure you enable "Allow Visually Lossless Compression" as well. The best way I can describe it when this is not enabled and you're using Lossless, is that the image you're trying to move feels really heavy, which makes it unusable, when you're obviously looking for a nice light feeling.

To see if the lossless setting actually makes a visual difference, purely in terms of colour and clarity, on the task bar by the clock, there's a Lossless Switch that the users can enable / disable on the fly by right clicking it. Enable this during a session and see if your users can notice any differences. If they can't, then you know this isn't something worth pursuing. When I enabled it for the above use case, the line colour and clarity in AutoCAD was identical to a native workstation, whereas without, the colour was slightly off with magenta lines, and the lines were slightly hazy and not crisp and sharp like they should be. But as said, each environment is different, and you may not need this setting if your users are happy.

vGPU Profiles

With the K220, K240 and K260 can you please clarify something for me. How are you managing the differing vGPU profiles? Are you building the Master Image with the K240, then changing the vGPU profile after you have created the Master Image to give you the various VM specs?

Power-On policy

Were you able to try creating some test VMs without GPUs assigned and start them? If yes, what were the results?

Are there only certain hosts that allow VMs to start? Is there anything in the Logs that indicate an attempt to start them or a failed attempt?

PvDisks

I'm unsure and would need to investigate. Are you using the latest version of PVS?

Compression

Sometimes with the Citrix Policies, it can be worth removing them (disable, not delete) and starting again, otherwise you can get drawn in to applying too many settings and wonder why they're not working (it's easily done).

As I said further up, Citrix prefers a stable network, so it may be worth investigating to make sure the network is stable and everything is as it should be, otherwise it is constantly trying to adapt and you'll get varying levels of quality. With a stable network, you should be able to establish a solid baseline and then build on it.

Are you able to confirm whether the Netscalers are MPX, SDX or VPX and whether you've tuned them or not? If they are VPX, can you please confirm the spec of them (CPU (Cores & Clock), RAM, Network and throughput license) and whether they're on a shared (if so what is sharing the host?) or dedicated host.

Depending on how the Gateway was created (Manually or through the Wizard), you have the option to allow the configuration to apply optimizations to it, was this done or not?

Have you tried bypassing the Netscalers and going to Storefront directly? Also, try connecting with RDP to one of the XDs and compare the difference to ICA.

Obviously I don't know what your in-house Netscaler skills are, but the default Netscaler TCP Profile should be replaced with a workload specific one. Here's a couple of guides about tuning the TCP Profiles for XenApp / XenDesktop / ICA:

https://msandbu.wordpress.com/2014/07/29/netscaler-tcp-profile-nstcp_default_xa_xd_profile/

http://msandbu.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/07/optimizing_netscaler_1.pdf

If you need more information about Netscaler tuning (which is an area that is over looked more often than not) then just google "XenDesktop Netscaler Tuning" (or similar) and review the results, there is definitely additional performance to be found by tuning them correctly. As mentioned at the start, it's all part of the end-to-end system :-)

The reason I'm interested in the Netscaler so much, is that everything you have runs through it, so a misconfiguration or miscalculation of some sort could potentially cause issues, regardless of what you configure behind it.

There are still so many variables that I don't know about your environment that can all contribute to the performance. But it at least sounds like you're making progress to get to a level that you're happier with.

Keep us posted!

Regards

Ben

#16
Posted 12/05/2016 02:17 PM   
More info to come your way shortly... Quick Q on the Citrix Desktop Manager - have read a bit about it online and it look slike a nice update to AutoCAD Thoughts ?? https://www.yorkshirecloud.co.uk/solved-poor-autocad-performance-in-citrix-xenapp/
More info to come your way shortly...

Quick Q on the Citrix Desktop Manager - have read a bit about it online and it look slike a nice update to AutoCAD

Thoughts ??


https://www.yorkshirecloud.co.uk/solved-poor-autocad-performance-in-citrix-xenapp/

#17
Posted 12/15/2016 03:52 AM   
I've never seen the issue they mention, and that article is 4 years old (a lifetime in terms of technology and updates), I'm not even sure it's relevant now. If there was a wider issue with Receiver, I'm sure Citrix would have fixed it. Which issues are you still experiencing?
I've never seen the issue they mention, and that article is 4 years old (a lifetime in terms of technology and updates), I'm not even sure it's relevant now. If there was a wider issue with Receiver, I'm sure Citrix would have fixed it.

Which issues are you still experiencing?

#18
Posted 12/15/2016 09:19 AM   
Hi everyone Just curious: Have you tested the experience without piggy-backing network on the phone? In a former job we had a lot of issues with piggy-backed networking on phones acting... well, "sub-optimal" is the nicest word I can come up with. PS: BJones - great work!! Cheers!
Hi everyone

Just curious: Have you tested the experience without piggy-backing network on the phone? In a former job we had a lot of issues with piggy-backed networking on phones acting... well, "sub-optimal" is the nicest word I can come up with.

PS: BJones - great work!!

Cheers!

Best regards
Rasmus

#19
Posted 01/04/2017 08:30 PM   
Hi Rasmus, Yes - we are trying that now. Also bumping a few up to direct Gigabit. Quick update was that we moved a bunch of them to XenApp and the mouse was a bit better. But we now have endless crashing of almost all apps. So guessing there is a setup issue here for temporary files. Anyone got an idea how AutoDesk and Solidworks run temp files... we had personal vDisks on XENDesktop - and we are only guessing, but seeing as all of them are crashing in a lot of apps. Just struggling for information as we seem to be on the cutting edge of this kind of setup. I hear lots of people say that they can run this perfectly from 200 miles away and the end user doesnt know. We cant run it locally without it either being laggy or crashing. So something has to be very wrong here.
Hi Rasmus,

Yes - we are trying that now. Also bumping a few up to direct Gigabit.

Quick update was that we moved a bunch of them to XenApp and the mouse was a bit better. But we now have endless crashing of almost all apps.

So guessing there is a setup issue here for temporary files.

Anyone got an idea how AutoDesk and Solidworks run temp files... we had personal vDisks on XENDesktop - and we are only guessing, but seeing as all of them are crashing in a lot of apps.

Just struggling for information as we seem to be on the cutting edge of this kind of setup. I hear lots of people say that they can run this perfectly from 200 miles away and the end user doesnt know.

We cant run it locally without it either being laggy or crashing. So something has to be very wrong here.

#20
Posted 01/23/2017 03:33 AM   
Hi Virge Have you checked nvidia-smi to ensure NVENC is being used on the XenDesktop VMs (NVENC helps to reduce latency, so good to know if it's working or not)? Obviously, now that you're using XenApp, you need a different set of Citrix Policies because NVENC does not work on XenApp and you're relying on the CPU to handle the compression. Mentioned above, have you tried going to Storefront directly yet and not using the Netscalers? Have you tried connecting to a XenDesktop with RDP? What happened? ... What do you use to manage user profiles? UPM?
Hi Virge

Have you checked nvidia-smi to ensure NVENC is being used on the XenDesktop VMs (NVENC helps to reduce latency, so good to know if it's working or not)? Obviously, now that you're using XenApp, you need a different set of Citrix Policies because NVENC does not work on XenApp and you're relying on the CPU to handle the compression.

Mentioned above, have you tried going to Storefront directly yet and not using the Netscalers? Have you tried connecting to a XenDesktop with RDP? What happened? ...

What do you use to manage user profiles? UPM?

#21
Posted 01/23/2017 09:47 AM   
Can you expand on something for me please BJones.... In one of your replies you mentioned that AutoCAD is CPU based NOT vGPU based ..... Everything I have ever dealt with for AutoCAD showed your answer to be true for Revit but not programs such as MEP & IDS. We use MEP, IDS & Revit here and when we first did CITRIX everything worked fine but MEP & IDS .... lag was ridiculous. (Had K6000 & GRID K2 cards). When I worked to troubleshoot this I kept running into things that suggested REVIT was working fine because that is mostly CPU based and doesn't rely heavily on the vGPU like MEP & IDS does. Thank You
Can you expand on something for me please BJones....

In one of your replies you mentioned that AutoCAD is CPU based NOT vGPU based ..... Everything I have ever dealt with for AutoCAD showed your answer to be true for Revit but not programs such as MEP & IDS. We use MEP, IDS & Revit here and when we first did CITRIX everything worked fine but MEP & IDS .... lag was ridiculous. (Had K6000 & GRID K2 cards). When I worked to troubleshoot this I kept running into things that suggested REVIT was working fine because that is mostly CPU based and doesn't rely heavily on the vGPU like MEP & IDS does.

Thank You

#22
Posted 01/23/2017 09:45 PM   
Hi MFJ When applications that are working normally on a local workstation are moved to a virtual environment, accessed remotely and then start misbehaving, as long as the virtual environment is spec'd and designed appropriately (I'm assuming yours is?) and not over utilized, one of the first things you want to do is check whether the protocol is introducing the issue. You can do this by accessing the virtual resource using a different technology (typically RDP will suffice for an initial test just to see if the symptoms persist (although there are others)). Another option is the access mechanism, a lot of folks with Citrix environments use Netscaler, however Netscalers are typically configured once for remote access and then never optimized for the specific workflow. Or a Netscaler VPX will sit on a server with unsuitable and / or insufficient and / or over-contended resources. Changing your access method is another good way to narrow down what is causing the issue. There can be numerous bottlenecks in the system depending on it's specification, architecture and utilization, and a bottleneck will typically manifest itself as latency to the end user. You could even go as far as changing the user peripherals for professional grade components, rather than the cheap rubbish that so many companies seem to use (keyboard and mouse (I mentioned those earlier in this post too)) as these are also often over looked. If you have MEP & IDS on an appropriately designed, spec'd platform, as mentioned, I'd check out the protocol and access methods and see what happens. Regards
Hi MFJ

When applications that are working normally on a local workstation are moved to a virtual environment, accessed remotely and then start misbehaving, as long as the virtual environment is spec'd and designed appropriately (I'm assuming yours is?) and not over utilized, one of the first things you want to do is check whether the protocol is introducing the issue. You can do this by accessing the virtual resource using a different technology (typically RDP will suffice for an initial test just to see if the symptoms persist (although there are others)). Another option is the access mechanism, a lot of folks with Citrix environments use Netscaler, however Netscalers are typically configured once for remote access and then never optimized for the specific workflow. Or a Netscaler VPX will sit on a server with unsuitable and / or insufficient and / or over-contended resources. Changing your access method is another good way to narrow down what is causing the issue.

There can be numerous bottlenecks in the system depending on it's specification, architecture and utilization, and a bottleneck will typically manifest itself as latency to the end user. You could even go as far as changing the user peripherals for professional grade components, rather than the cheap rubbish that so many companies seem to use (keyboard and mouse (I mentioned those earlier in this post too)) as these are also often over looked.

If you have MEP & IDS on an appropriately designed, spec'd platform, as mentioned, I'd check out the protocol and access methods and see what happens.

Regards

#23
Posted 01/23/2017 11:17 PM   
Quick Question for you all out there with AutoCAD Load up plant 3D and crank up the sample project - it is a bunch of pipes and stoarge tanks. go into the full 3d model... We get a 2-3 second lag on zooming in and out on this drawing. We also go immediately to wireframe when using orbit. Lastly - when running AutoCAD with XENApp on 2012R2, we get a LOT of crashes. 3-4 a day. We dont get this crashing on XENDEsktop on Win7
Quick Question for you all out there with AutoCAD

Load up plant 3D and crank up the sample project - it is a bunch of pipes and stoarge tanks.

go into the full 3d model...

We get a 2-3 second lag on zooming in and out on this drawing. We also go immediately to wireframe when using orbit.

Lastly - when running AutoCAD with XENApp on 2012R2, we get a LOT of crashes. 3-4 a day. We dont get this crashing on XENDEsktop on Win7

#24
Posted 02/12/2017 12:18 PM   
Latest update - we have a working system with most... the only killer we have now is 3D and Hatching. Hatching is causing no end of lag on the Citrix platform. Anyone know of a way we can "redraw" or use a different drawing protocol to alleviate the mouse lag with Hatching ? 3D is still awful - cant really use plant 3d, we are trying this on local machines now to see if it is any better. Hatching is fine on a local machine. and it seems to be that "cross hatching" is a big killer.
Latest update - we have a working system with most... the only killer we have now is 3D and Hatching.

Hatching is causing no end of lag on the Citrix platform.

Anyone know of a way we can "redraw" or use a different drawing protocol to alleviate the mouse lag with Hatching ?

3D is still awful - cant really use plant 3d, we are trying this on local machines now to see if it is any better.

Hatching is fine on a local machine. and it seems to be that "cross hatching" is a big killer.

#25
Posted 02/14/2017 11:31 PM   
Hi Virge I'm going to try this on my system and see if I get the same symptoms, I'm just obtaining the 2017 version now ... It's not ideal though, because of the way my connection routes, I'm approx 800 miles away from my hardware and accessing it over the internet. I'll post back when I've had a play. Let's see what happens ... Regards
Hi Virge

I'm going to try this on my system and see if I get the same symptoms, I'm just obtaining the 2017 version now ...

It's not ideal though, because of the way my connection routes, I'm approx 800 miles away from my hardware and accessing it over the internet.

I'll post back when I've had a play. Let's see what happens ...

Regards

#26
Posted 02/15/2017 09:44 AM   
So I've had a quick play with it, and I don't appear to have the kind of lag you mention above. Now, as said previously, I'm not a CAD user, and I know how sensitive these teams are when it comes to latency and interaction, so I'm not going to say it's perfect. I've taken 2 screenshots (attached) both running at 2560 x 1600 resolution. [b]AutoCAD 2017 Plant 3D - 1.jpg[/b] At this distance, I have just under 1 second of latency before the screen updates after a 1 notch mouse wheel scroll, the further I zoom out, it adds a little more update latency. [b]AutoCAD 2017 Plant 3D - 2.jpg[/b] At this distance and anything closer, I have no latency after a 1 notch mouse wheel scroll. I don't know how to apply Hatching or Orbit (I've had a go, but it just tries to analyze everything, I'm obviously doing something wrong), but when I enable wireframe and zoom in and out, I don't seem to have any issues. With my limited working knowledge of AutoCAD, that's the best I can do unless I have step by step instructions. Typically I'd obviously let a CAD user do this, and I'll just fix what they have issues with. rather than me try to use their application. Regards
So I've had a quick play with it, and I don't appear to have the kind of lag you mention above.

Now, as said previously, I'm not a CAD user, and I know how sensitive these teams are when it comes to latency and interaction, so I'm not going to say it's perfect. I've taken 2 screenshots (attached) both running at 2560 x 1600 resolution.

AutoCAD 2017 Plant 3D - 1.jpg

At this distance, I have just under 1 second of latency before the screen updates after a 1 notch mouse wheel scroll, the further I zoom out, it adds a little more update latency.

AutoCAD 2017 Plant 3D - 2.jpg

At this distance and anything closer, I have no latency after a 1 notch mouse wheel scroll.

I don't know how to apply Hatching or Orbit (I've had a go, but it just tries to analyze everything, I'm obviously doing something wrong), but when I enable wireframe and zoom in and out, I don't seem to have any issues.

With my limited working knowledge of AutoCAD, that's the best I can do unless I have step by step instructions. Typically I'd obviously let a CAD user do this, and I'll just fix what they have issues with. rather than me try to use their application.

Regards

#27
Posted 02/15/2017 12:21 PM   
Just out of interest, I thought I'd also try it at 4K with wireframe, being completely honest, there is a little bit of compression artifacting. I could probably tune it out, but I just wanted to use the same policies as above. Response times are the same as 2560 x 1600. Regards
Just out of interest, I thought I'd also try it at 4K with wireframe, being completely honest, there is a little bit of compression artifacting. I could probably tune it out, but I just wanted to use the same policies as above. Response times are the same as 2560 x 1600.

Regards

#28
Posted 02/15/2017 01:34 PM   
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